Mass Effect 3

[rhoenix]

I played quite a bit over the weekend, and I think I'll have to restart the playthrough before completion, because of how one of the game's choices worked out.

To not spoil things, I experienced the event as a binary choice of which side dies. With enough rep though, you can talk them both down, evidently - and if you don't, then you basically get to pick which potential ally of yours will get clubbed to death with a wrecking ball.

This is purely an emotional thing for me, since intellectually I get what happened and why. But... I just can't go on with this playthrough after what happened.

If there really is a way to get both sides to back down peacefully, then wonderful. But to be honest, if there isn't, I probably won't bother finishing ME3 with any of my playthroughs.

I haven't even gotten to the ending, which I've heard many shrill cries of betrayal and awfulness about.

The gameplay and presentation is excellent.
The music is excellent.
The writing... I don't know about just yet.

[Josh]

Sounds fairly Bioware then.

Honestly not a spoiler in that, I think most of us knew there'd be pretty much exactly that sort of decision point when they started talking about race alliance scenarios. Much like the first Dragon Age.

Not discouraging to me, but definitely a hint to wait for the price to come down.

[Stofsk]

I don't get you guys. Bioware have said this series is about making hard decisions where the consequences of those decisions will come back to haunt you. In the first game this was barely a thing, and it was only really highlighted in the decision of who you leave behind on Virmire. In 2 it was illustrated in the loyalty missions and how soon after the Reaper IFF you go through the Omega-4 relay. All of these are easily solved to the point where the final 'suicide' mission becomes trivially easy to survive (and in the case of Virmire well, you either like Ash or Kaidan or you don't, and if you don't then the decision is easy).

I've kept more or less spoiler free, except for one really big spoiler relating to a character's fate, and a couple of minor ones, and I suspect it's the same event that rhoenix is talking about.

Spoiler: show

Rhoenix, are you talking about Tali and the geth?

But that doesn't matter. The point is that bioware has FINALLY put in consequences for your decisions, which has always been the goal - and it turns out not everything you do is going to result in a perfect outcome. That's pretty much the central theme of the series which for the first two games was almost completely ignored or trivialised.

I mean the fact rhoenix has said that this is purely an emotional issue for him, really speaks to how powerful this theme really is, and how successfully it was pulled off if it's so gut-wrenching.

Bear in mind I have yet to actually play the game, since it hasn't yet arrived (hopefully I get it today). I might be singing a different tune once I play it and more importantly, finish it. Because I have also heard the same about the ending. Basically the entire game is awesome except for the final five minutes - and this is from people I trust who have finished it. I'm actually dying to know how Bioware have fucked it up and it's taking everything I have to resist the temptation to google it on the wiki.

[rhoenix]

Yes, I'll admit that.

And, I found that I'll pretty much have to restart my ME3 playthrough to have a chance to avoid what happened. It'll take me a couple days, since what happened really pissed me off. I'll try again on my next weekend, and we'll see.

[Josh]

Well, I went ahead and looked at the wiki and I don't see precisely the source of fan ire there, but if you're avoiding spoilers then you definitely want to avoid.

Me, I've never been one to avoid spoilers, soooooo...

[Stofsk]

Welp, I couldn't resist. I read the ending on the wiki.

All I can say is 'I want my money back'.

[rhoenix]

Welp, I couldn't resist. I read the ending on the wiki.

All I can say is 'I want my money back'.

I still haven't looked, but from what I've heard peripherally... I'm not encouraged.

I'll likely try to restart my runthrough this weekend to get past the whole ugly situation I was in before, and I'll see. Right now though, I'm not feeling all that enthusiastic about it.

[Stofsk]

Dude, I was so excited to play this game. I preordered the collector's edition, I've been replaying ME2 heavily the last few weeks, I even went back to ME1 for my latest playthrough to fix up an old save I had to import into ME2.

Now... ugh. I'll still play it, when it arrives, but the wind isn't in my sails anymore.

[Dark Silver]

Doing some research, there's actually a couple of fan-based theories out there that, if taken in the context of WHAT happens and what we know of the Reapers....makes sense and SEMI SORTA KINDA fits in with everything.....

THE THEORY IS SPOILERY, so do not read it if you do not wish to be spoiled (for those who haven't done so yet already)

Spoiler: show

The ending sequences is not actually taking place in reality - but instead it all happens inside Shepard's mind. It's a Indoctrination sequences, and the last one being done by the Reapers in order to see if they CAN get control of The Shep.

Mostly it has to do right after Harbringer blows your silly Infantry Charge to shit - Shepard wakes up and there are several changes - Shep's armor is changed, his gun has magick ammo, your team mates are no where to be seen, and Shepard moves more "floaty" than before, with the inability to look all the way down. During this time, you also see oily black tendrilly things at the edges of your screen....

Anderson shows up in the Citidel, ahead of you, despite saying he got in after you did, and when the Illusive Man shows up, he looks something like Saren did in ME. When the choices are given to you during this sequences, things are ass backward in their morality - it's Renegade to save yourself from being shot, etc. When the AAI shows up, he gives you three choices - two of which would be good for the Reapers, while one is bad for them (Control, Merge or Destroy).

If we look at this from a Indoctrination standpoint....the AAI says it'll allow Control of the Reapers, but up until this point, we have NO reason to trust this AI, it just showed up, admitted to being the source of control for the Reapers and the 50,000 year cycles and now has three magic choices for you.

Here's the kicker from the theory, if I get this right. This ENTIRE SCENE from right after Harbringer blasts your team, until now, is a TEST. It's Harbinger attempting to take final control and fully Indoctrinate Shep, and this is it. If he "fails" this test, he'll be a Reaper Pawn, just like the Illusive Man. Control does not let you take control of the Reapers...it lets them take Control of the Shepard - a similar outcome with the Synthesis - he basically becomes one with the Reapers. While if you do Destroy....Shepard wakes up, to find himself in his armor, and the war still rages around him....

This is sorta carried out by the weird things in the ending - the Normandy is running away from the fight through a Mass Effect jump (for some reason) and is rushing off with your squad mates. Why the hell would that happen and how the bloody hell did the squadmates get onto the ship? It makes more sense if it's happening in Shep's mind as Harbringer is trying to fuck with Shep more, and make him come to their side.

So yeah...given what I've read and the videos I've seen....it makes some sense.

[Stofsk]

Spoiler: show

The problem I have with that theory is it smacks of desperate fans trying to find ANY reason to excuse really bad writing.

My biggest problem with the ending, aside from the fact your choices don't matter and the three 'choices' you have result in virtually the same cutscene with no variation, is this picture:

Literally, nothing about this ending makes any goddamn sense.

[rhoenix]

As far as I am now concerned, Bioware is completely incapable of writing a story to its conclusion without utterly fucking it up.

I have lost all interest in the Mass Effect universe, except perhaps in terms of stories.

[Stofsk]

Personally I blame Mac Walters. And Casey Hudson for all the lies he spewed. From what I've heard Walters is responsible for arguably the weakest parts of the game, didn't let anyone else provide feedback on his work and was the one responsible for the ending. Since I haven't played yet I don't know which parts are weak or not, but I've seen the ending on youtube and it's like being punched in the balls for ten whole minutes.

I get the feeling that Bioware is in the middle of some crisis management, or I should hope they are. I'm hoping they respond to the criticism from the fans and see if the ending can be retooled. There's plenty of precedent for this kind of shit, and even the recent book that got released - 'Deception' - which was universally panned by the fans for being a pile of dogshit, apparently THAT is getting reedited and new editions will feature corrections (I don't really know how extensive this can get since every criticism I've seen of the book sort of suggests it is first draft bad so any new edition would almost have to be a new goddamn book for it to be acceptable).

The interesting thing that's come out of this entire saga has been the PR response from 3rd party players who are obviously revealed themselves to be bought and sold. Guys like penny arcade who continue to remain irrelevant, and IGN who should have zero credibility with anyone with half a brain. (I mean holy fuck bioware put Jessica Chobot in their game for fuck's sake, any word that comes out of IGN should be immediately suspect). In particular there is the issue of 'whiny gamers' and 'entitlement issues'. To be blunt, had I not spoiled myself I would be leaning towards supporting this camp because in general I agree most gamers whinge a lot. But holy fuck, these endings are that bad.

But I think most ME fans seem to be a decent sort. There's a charity drive over on Child's Play which has, incredibly, raised over 67K last time I checked. That's a good effort.

[frigidmagi]

Wait are you saying Penny Arcade was bought off, or that they're to small to matter?

[Hotfoot]

I just finished my Mass Effect 3 run, and while I'm still chewing over it, I'm going to say this: The ending, bar the last, say, minute or so, was brilliant.

But man, one minute to undo over a hundred hours between three games.

Spoilers from here on.

Spoiler: show

The scene with the Illusive Man? Fucking brilliant. Martin Sheen and Keith David pulled out the stops on that one. Watching Anderson and Shepard slowly dying? Sad, but stirring. I don't mind an ending that's bittersweet or a bit of a downer, but that's not what this was.

Someone, somewhere in Bioware, dropped the ball here. I don't know why or how it got dropped that badly, but someone should have said "no, we're not introducing a whole new character at the last minute, literally, who is a literal Deus Ex Machina, offering the same choices for ending as, well...Deus Ex.

Where is Shepard's defiance against inevitability? Where is the speech to change the Catalyst's mind, offer up the solution that ends things the way Shepard, Paragon, Renegade, or Paragade, may want?

The options given are all lousy, and even worse, all basically the same. Destroy all synthetics (including Geth, EDI, and yourself), "Control" the Reapers, and "Fuse" Synthetics and Organics. Of all of them, "Control" is the best option, but it fucks the universe over anyway because it destroys all the Mass Relays and, supposedly, kicks everyone back to pre-spaceflight or some shit.

Yeah, I suppose with existing FTL tech and the Quarian Flotilla, the Fleet at the end of the game could make it back to their respective homeworlds. In a few hundred years.

The sort version is that the endings are lame and don't show the care and craftsmanship the rest of the games do. If it weren't an unskippable cutscene, I'd say just end it with Shepard and Anderson on the Citadel and just make up your own, go from there, and go from there.

So as a final word, with as few spoilers as possible.

Everyone knows I was infuriated over Dragon Age 2's last chapter. That had me building up to a frothing rage over more than four hours with how bad it was. I still love the Dragon Age universe enough to run a game in it. I still love Mass Effect, and Mass Effect 3 was fucking AMAZING for the entire duration, until the last minute. I'm not furious about it, at least not yet. I still love the universe and I think it has a lot of potential. I may even finish the Mass Effect conversion for SilCORE for a pen and paper RPG funtime still, because the universe, baseline, has potential for a lot of fun.

But there's no way in hell I'm using that ending, any of them.

And Bioware is on notice. I voted with my dollar in Dragon Age 2 by not buying any DLC. I am tentatively putting my foot down for Mass Effect 3 on the matter. I still enjoy the co-op and I'll likely continue on with that, but Bioware is back to Never Winter Nights status with me.

[Stofsk]

Wait are you saying Penny Arcade was bought off, or that they're to small to matter?

I'm saying they're irrelevant to anything yet people still listen to them. For SOME REASON.

EDIT Basically I think they're not very talented, nor funny, nor have they ever been funny, they don't really have anything interesting or insightful to say about anything, both in general and on ME3 in particular (Tycho's 'rebuttal' to a gamefront article blasting the ending was wrong and the comic that made fun of the fans for wanting a better ending was cringeworthy), and yet these guys apparently have a great deal of influence. It bothers me a tad.

[Hotfoot]

If people listen to them, perhaps they aren't irrelevant?

Look, I don't agree with everything the Penny Arcade guys say, but I still read their comic, I laugh, and I enjoy myself. If you don't, well, okay, that's fine. It's not like there are humor police, however much Havoc and Frigid may wish it were so. You are, however, falling into the trap of "I'm a reasonable person, and I don't like something, thus no reasonable person should like it, and so anyone who does like it is not a reasonable person and oh my god so many people like it what is going on?" Some things are just about taste and/or preferences. Most people I know love Penny Arcade, so do I. I find Tycho to usually have opinions I can get behind, while I tend to disagree with Gabe most of the time. Sometimes they're both wrong.

Except here, you're wrong. Not for not liking Penny Arcade, but you're wrong about the stances of the people behind it. Gabe is the one defending the ending, not Tycho. Tycho is the one who states that while Bioware certainly has the right to tell whatever story they see fit, the fans have every right to be critical of it.

As for the comic? I thought it was funny. It's not the first, nor likely will it be the last comic that makes fun of the desire for a different ending to the game. And when you think about it, the very idea that people should, or even could ask for another ending is in itself nearly ludicrous. Not that it shouldn't be done, or that it can't be done, but that it is able to be a request that can be made and potentially fulfilled. Imagine if we could actually petition George Lucas to give us BLU-Ray versions of the Original Trilogy, without the extra crap he's put in since?

That said, some people do want a space segway and a krogan birthday cake ending. That, I think, may go too far. The ending doesn't need to be super happy and wonderful, just...better. But when you open up a story to rule of public opinion, that is the other extreme things can go to. When you're a creator, I think there needs to be a happy medium between the story you want to tell, and what other people want to receive. Too much one way, and you get esoteric crap where the creator rambles along putting out whatever shit comes to mind, and the other way, you get mindless shit that merely appeases the lowest common denominator.

And yet despite the "influence" you're talking about, the reaction on the internet as a whole to the ending is still overwhelmingly negative. I don't know a single person who has looked at Gabe's defense, or any defense of the ending and said, "oh, no, I guess I was wrong, the ending was really great the whole time."

Because, well, it's not, and most of the people who are defending it are either grasping at straws or screaming "ART" like it's a shield from criticism.

[Stofsk]

Ah you're right, it was Gabe not Tycho. Mea culpa. I still think they suck though :) When it comes right down to it that's just my personal opinion on their talent or humour. I feel they're irrelevant to me, but obviously not to other people.

Anyway I don't think it's ludicrous to petition them to change the ending, but it might be ludicrous to expect them to change it. I'd love to petition Lucas over releasing the original Original Trilogy onto Blu-ray, not the crappy 'special' editions with even more special alterations (like Vader's NOOOOOO at the end of Jedi), and I am pretty sure the fans have been vociferous in their dislike over what he's been doing to SW for a decade now. But he's made it clear he doesn't give a fuck. Which is one of the reasons I haven't bought anything SW related in years (with the exception of stuff like Zahn's re-release of 'Heir to the Throne' for its 20th anniversary, which I see as supporting Zahn not supporting the goddamn franchise). But really, a lot of stuff like this should be protested and usually are - if a movie sucks, word of mouth gets around and box office takings suffer. If a tv show starts sucking, ratings start dwindling. This can be good or bad depending on the circumstances (for example, Transformers films haven't suffered at the box office despite my opinion that they should, while a show like Community is struggling in the ratings which I think is a goddamn tragedy). Even now, word of mouth has gotten around and apparently ME3's price has dropped at some retailers.

But the main reason I don't think it's all that unreasonable is because a video game should be easier to alter - ie through a patch or DLC or an expansion pack - than something like a film or tv show or a book. If a film sucks, usually that's the end of it. It'll always suck, unless literally the director was forced to go down a certain path by the studio execs and there's a better director's cut out there somewhere that might see the light of day. Books usually don't get republished unless you're talking about Big Name writers or licenced fiction which can absorb the costs. Same goes for TV shows, only it's more final. I found the ending to nBSG to be an enormous letdown, similar to what I've seen from ME3 really. But the difference is well nBSG has aired, it's over, the sets have been torn down and everyone's gone off to do other things. It would be utterly unrealistic to petition Moore and Co. to rewrite and reshoot all the things I personally disliked about it. I get that. But computer games have the ability to be patched, and even after a game's release most studios (particularly the big ones) will commit some time afterwards to support the game's release in the form of patches and extra content. So it's not that huge a leap I think. I can certainly see the chance of this petition succeeding being higher than say, a petition to get Lucas to fuck off and leave SW alone.

Besides which, as you say I think opposition to the fans clamouring for a new ending seems to fall down in a different category; i.e. whether it's 'right' to ask or demand an artist to change their vision to suit the audience's expectations. That's a whole 'nother topic really. But if I were writing a story, I'd want feedback from people to tell me whether or not it was any good. Because I would want it to be the best it can be. From what I understand, Mac Walters and Casey Hudson decided on this ending without really getting any feedback from anyone (I believe this is in the 'Final Hours' iPad app which I don't have and only know about secondhand). Apparently there were notes in the margins that said 'Lots of speculation for everyone!' and 'Ending like the first Matrix film'. Even if this was their artistic vision, I still think they should change it. And I don't think it has to be a happy ending or anything, in fact before I saw the endings I was already expecting a brutal, 'everyone dies' style final act with Space Jesus making the supreme sacrifice to stop the reapers. I just think they should do what they said they were going to do, and make a number of different, divergent endings that takes into account your decisions throughout all three games. One way to do this might be to see your war assets do their thing in a final endgame battle montage. Maybe some assets work better together, kind of like how the end of ME2 was dependent on a variety of decisions (like send Tali into the vents, but you have to make sure the guy leading the fireteam is up for it, because she will die if he's not; and both have to be loyal which is set hours before whenever you did their LMs; stuff like that. ME2 really showed us the power of our choices, even despite my criticism of it being a little too easy to have everyone survive the suicide mission). On the other hand maybe all they really need to do is excise the Catalyst entirely, or alter it in a way that doesn't make it offensively stupid. Putting in a new cinematic cutscene without anyone talking should also be possible.

[Josh]

Focus groups are fucking expensive as shit but maybe the gaming industry should try to figure out how to implement some form of focus group testing, at least for big-ticket releases like this one.

[Charon]

SPOILERS

An interesting look at the theory about the ending.

It's an interesting look at how the ending might make sense.

Spoiler: show

They might be giving us a "real" ending in DLC. If it is Free DLC, then actually this could be a moment of brilliance on the part of Bioware, turning DLC itself into almost a method of storytelling. It would be very interesting to see done.

If it is true, and it is NOT free DLC, I want someone to take EA to court over it. Yes I am serious. The standard agreement for entertainment is that you get the complete package from the get-go, that is a beginning, a middle, and an end. We do not pay for the privilege of getting an ending. That would be like someone stopping the reel in Casablanca when the nazi is about to call in to stop the plane, then they come out and say you need to pay an additional two dollars in order to see the ending. No, that is breech of contract and they should be smacked hard for doing such a thing.

[Josh]

Okay if the second option is true there's no way on earth I'd drop a dime for this game. Even if the first is true, I wouldn't consider it brilliant, I'd consider it at best a very stupid and convoluted scheme, at worst it's simply a lameass attempt at ass-covering.

[rhoenix]

[rhoenix]

The composer of the music from Mass Effect 2, Jimmy Hinson, has a page up showcasing the music he made that didn't actually get used: http://music.biggiantcircles.com/album/legacy

I was impressed with most of the music in ME2 - seeing more by the same composer, with the same basic theme, is rather awesome.

[Cynical Cat]

ME3 was pure awesome . . . but the last five minutes were shit.

[Stofsk]

I'm still waiting for my game to arrive. At this point I'm actually concerned it may be lost in the mail.

Nice picture btw rhoenix. :)

[General Havoc]

I finally finished Mass Effect 3 last night, and have since had time to ruminate on the infamous "last five minutes". Here is my conclusion.

Spoiler: show

I didn't like the ending of Mass Effect 3. I didn't hate it either. It seems to me like a case of Bioware outsmarting themselves by trying to create something truly different for the conclusion to their epic space series. Rumors abound of editorial fiats, contention within the writers' corps, and other shenanigans, but I put little stock in rumors. Besides, every collaborative writing project ever attempted results in contention, editorial fiat, and hurt feelings, regardless of the quality of the work produced. It's the nature of the beast.

Fan theories are another thing I tend to put no stock in, as it's usually a case of someone trying (occasionally successfully) to outthink the writers. Assassin's Creed has plenty of these. But when Hotfoot began to lay out the arguments in favor of the theory that people have been alluding to above, I have to admit, I found these evidences compelling, to the point where I can't envision what other possible plan Bioware had for this ending. Like everyone, I felt the "Buy DLC" disclaimer at the end was stupid, and that the theory, if right, points to a very dangerous possibility of Bioware attempting to sell everyone the "actual" ending of the game. That said, I didn't feel as robbed as some others evidently did by this ending. Partly because that, even if the ending was shit, it was tremendously well orchestrated shit. The music, cinematography, and overall "feel" of the ending was stellar, even excellent. It left a deep and abiding impression, albeit not the one I think they wanted.

Finally, I will break from the pack entirely and mention that I actually liked the after-credits scene. I admit, it makes no goddamn sense, but thematically I loved the mythic sense of it. Nor did I (as some of our more jaded members may have) interpret it merely as an extension of the "Buy DLC" disclaimer. Even if I never touch another piece of DLC, that scene, or something like it, is actually pretty much how I would like to have the entire series end on. Shepard and her (yes her, in my game at least) crew's actions have transcended the realm of impossible and entered into that of legendary mythology. The execution may not have been perfect, but the theme was. And I'd honestly rather they got the theme right and the execution wrong than the opposite in that case (though getting both right would have been nice).

Mass Effect 3 was a stunning piece of art. A magisterial work. It was rich and textured and lovingly crafted, with vastly improved gameplay (something the ME series has not always done amazingly well), and a story to rival anything Bioware ever produced. The stakes were incalculable, the triumphs godly, the defeats crushing and abyssal. The characters that we've grown to know so well after a hundred and fifty+ hours of gameplay (Assuming half game and half story, the equivalent to 35 consecutive films) were in this game so sharply drawn and given such depth of emotion, character, and awesomeness, that I still can scarcely believe it. There were scenes that made me literally turn the game off and sit quietly in my chair for a while. There were scenes that made me jump up and cheer. Bad ending or no bad ending, this was one of the most amazing games I've ever had the privilege of playing. If they screwed up the last five minutes, and they unquestionably did, then I shall sit back and remember the three thousand, two hundred, and ninety-five minutes that they did not screw up, and that form the abiding memory I have of having played this masterpiece of a game.

My name is General Havoc, and Mass Effect 3 is one of my favorite games ever made.

Spoiler: show

For Mordin, Legion, Thane, Anderson, and yes, even the Illusive Man.